This letter is in resposne to the article I read at http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html

Hi JP,

I am writing in response to your article entitled Shattering the Christ-Myth.  Unfortunately, your article is a bit light on facts, and I would like more clarification.

You simply focus on a single quote from Justin's Dialogue with Trypho, then copy and paste a few quotes against G.A. Wells and declare victory.  Huh?  It made me smile reading it, since the implication is that those are the only pieces of evidence needing refutation.

You kind of hobbled together a final argument  on why no one noticed Jesus while he was alive.  Most of it didn't even make sense, as it was simply the same argument repeated six times.  The crux of which is:

"Jesus was not considered to be historically significant by historians of his time. He did not address the Roman Senate, or write extensive Greek philosophical treatises"

Well, I'm sure performing feats of magic, coming back to life and stopping the sun would have been a bit significant!!!

After reading about you on Wikipedia and other various places on the web, I expected a much more academic argument, systematically countering each point the jesus-myth movement put forward.  What I got, unfortunately, was an 7th grade level.

J. P. I want to help.  I want to push you, to challenge you to do better.  Right now there are many "lost souls" like myself who believe, simply, that Jesus was a myth - a synthesis of other mystery religions that were very prominent during the first century AD.

So here is my question to you. What firm evidence do you have that Jesus was an actual historical figure?  Your "highly reliable sources" - Tacitus and Josephus are laughable.  The Tacitus quote is disputed and was written 60 years after JC died, a thousand miles away.  The Josephus passage you are referring to is also highly disputed, and definitely not contemporary with the life of JC.

Now try to understand it from my perspective.  I see a mountain of evidence indicating that the legend of Jesus was an synthesis of existing gods during the same time - many of which parallel exactly the life of "christ", and you give me two tired old dubious quotes from decades after this guy was supposed to have lived?  The only people who would follow that logic are people who already believe anyway.  If you want to convince non-believers, you need a bit more fact on your side.

So please JC, answer my call.  I'll post this letter to the forum at jesusneverexisted.org, as an open letter awaiting your reply.

JP wrote me this pius, humble email this morning:

Congratulations! You win a Screwball Award!
 
Come see me at theologyweb.com and I'll be glad to heap some public humiliation on you.

My Reply


JP,

I guess you equate "public humiliation" with providing facts to back up your argument.  Apparently, the true christian spirit shows itself when its myths are exposed to the light of day.

Sorry I tried to engage you in a conversation about the facts not realizing how inadequately developed your social abilities are.  I did join your board though, so perhaps you can "win" the argument by insulting me or making fun of my name or the like.

Hey, christians have been doing this since the beginning, why change a winning strategy, eh?

Stay Cool!

My post at TheologyWeb

Hello,

I am writing this by invitation of JP Holding.  I had written Mr. Holding on the evidence of a historical jesus.  It seems odd that our only historical knowledge of Jesus comes for a few anonymous letters written decades after he supposedly died.

For this question, Mr. Holding called me a screwball and told me to come here where he would publicly humiliate me. 

Here is his exact email to me:
Congratulations! You win a Screwball Award!
Come see me at theologyweb.com and I'll be glad to heap some public humiliation on you.

I wasn't exactly looking for public humiliation, instead I was just looking for an answer to my question.  What other historical evidence do we have?  As a non-believer, how can I start my path to faith without some reasonable explaination for the basis of this faith?

I hope you people here will be more patient then Mr. Holding in explaining the historical roots and basis of your faith.

Stay Cool!

Just another childish, tightass Republican. Beat him over the head with his Bible Belt...

Reply from JP

Sorry, but as stupid as you showed yourself to be, the only way you are worth my time is if I can have some fun.
 
My articles already answered all the crap you pulled, and if you do more than just register, we'll be glad to laugh at you. See you there.

then another

The mods will likely have your neck for registering under that name. :-D But I guess it gives you all the excuse you need to run away.

My Response:

Hi JP,

Thanks for thinking I'm stupid.  Glad to see you fufilled my prediction you'd resort to name calling.

Can you please identify the articles you repond to my questions (AKA "the crap I pulled").

Do you normally laugh at people asking questions?  Or is that just when you don't know or have answers?

Stay Cool!

Looks like my name of "holding_jp" was rejected, and I am now known as member11491 on theologyweb.   

Although JP was very combative in his last letter, he's actually a bit nervous.  I can imagine his stomach twists when he thinks about how he can answer this troubling question.  My experience in life is this: if something is true, people will willingly give you the proof.  If something is not true, people will always get very nervous and angry when you ask.  Anyway here is my reply


HI JP,

First of all, I want to feel I have participated now fully in the christian style of debating.  I have asked a few logical questions, and I have apparently been "given the beating I deserved".  I've always heard that in christian circles this happens, but I finally got to experience some of the culture.  Thank you!

Now that my "virtual beating" has been administered, I was wondering if you were going to attempt to answer any of my questions.  To reiterate, please answer this:

During the life of Jesus, not a single person made note of his existence, even though he did very public things (resurrected dead people, healed the sick, overturned tables in the temple of Jeruselem, etc).  Decades later, these stories started circulating by anonymous authors, in a time when pius, allegorical fiction such as this was very popular.

So what I would like to know is do we have ANY evidence that demonstrates Jesus was a concrete, living person.

I'm very willing to listen, despite your behavior so far.  I also understand that this line of questioning is a bit frightening for you.  This may be why your initial reaction to my questions were a bit combative.  But if you have the facts on your side, you have nothing to fear!

I assure you I indeed would like a serious answer, and I am willing to listen.

Thank you JC

I should have warned you about Holding (AKA Turkel), Jesus.  He doesn't debate.  He gets angry and calls people names and such.  Till has taken care of him in the past.   You can read the exchange here:

Skeptical Review: Till vs Turkel
http://theskepticalreview.com/AuthorRobertTurkel.html

Sean

Hi Sean,

Thanks for the heads up.  For some reason, I thought he was some kind of a bible scholar - he was quoted in Wikipedia as an "expert" so I wrote him, but I quickly realized he was just a completely clueless moron, with the biblical knowledge of your typical trash collector (no offense to trash collectors).

Anyway, thanks for the link.  My favorite page was his "hideous visage"



See the full thing here: http://theskepticalreview.com/BobbyHideous.html

For those who are interested, you can see his weird section of a christian board at http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=84669&page=1&pp=16

The thread is quite strange.  He's in there with a bunch of (by their looks) teenage boys, with "JP" as their ringleader.  How the hell does anyone take this guy seriously?  I would encourage any christian reading this to evaluate the arguments presented by "JP".  A fully grown man acting like a child - and yet is considered an authority in christian circles.  I can imagine this kind of personage torching ancient libraries, smugly gloating in their own ignorance. 


 

Well said.  This guy is a nutter ... and Christians are constantly quoting him.  Just shows the depth of their ignorance and desperation.  A Biblical scholar ...? WAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!  I'd love to see him debate Ehrman, Pagels, White et al.  It would be over before it had even started.

Kindly,

Sean

Hi Jesus, why do you waste your time on brainwashed scum like this guy? He will NEVER accept the Jesus myth theory, he´s afraid from fiery hell and he thinks he will ascend to heaven in the upcoming rapture!!!I think it would be easier for you to accept the "gawdman" as your personal savior!!!

Hi Leo,

You are quite correct.  I had encountered "JP" quoted on Wikipedia, so I mistakenly thought he was a scholar of sorts. 

Here is the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_as_myth

I should have read his wikipedia page - apparently a flame war that is continuing on Wikipedia. Maybe someone should add his picture to the wikipedia page and give a few of his more recent quotes?